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Author Topic: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list  (Read 51174 times)

LyalC52

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Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« on: March 15, 2016, 02:20:42 PM »
USBC's FB page is reporting the Jackal and Carnage have been removed from the approved equipment list. I've been trying to get onto Bowl.com to read the article, but their site is down.

Anyone know why?
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J_w73

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #106 on: March 16, 2016, 10:16:29 AM »
Quote from: SG17 on March 15, 2016, 10:34:39 PM
Quote from: noslouch on March 15, 2016, 09:27:00 PM
You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors

not getting pulled over and getting a ticket is not the same as legal.  driving over the posted speed limit is illegal.  period. 

just as a diff of 0.601 is against USBC rules

Thank you.. simple common sense.
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milorafferty

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #107 on: March 16, 2016, 10:18:14 AM »
I have not used my Carnage hardly, just too damn strong for the conditions I see. I'll gladly take advantage of this to trade it for another Revolt Havoc.


I have an original Jackal that is still NIB. Maybe I will hang onto it and sell it next year for a billion dollars to some idiot on eBay.  :o ;D
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J_w73

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #108 on: March 16, 2016, 10:21:06 AM »
Quote from: noslouch on March 15, 2016, 11:51:55 PM
Regardless of what the numbers were. The ball made it thru USBC testing and passed. As far as using it in tournaments the ball is still LEGAL to use in NON SANCTIONED tournaments. Since the ball is still stamped USBC CERTIFIED. High Diff. balls do not suit everyone's style of bowling. Once you punch finger holes and weight hole in a ball the Diff. can be increased by drilling the weight hole further from center line. Which in point makes about 90% of balls drilled illegal.
 Driving over 11 miles over the posted speed limit is illegal. not 1 or 2 or 3. Unless your in a school zone with children around

The specification is for the manufacturing of an undrilled ball.  There is no specification on the differential of a drilled ball as long as the static rules and other hole rules are followed.
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375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

BallReviews-Removed0385

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #109 on: March 16, 2016, 10:22:21 AM »
Quote from: milorafferty on March 16, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
I have not used my Carnage hardly, just too damn strong for the conditions I see. I'll gladly take advantage of this to trade it for another Revolt Havoc.


I have an original Jackal that is still NIB. Maybe I will hang onto it and sell it next year for a billion dollars to some idiot on eBay.  :o ;D

Now that's funny, and probably true.  You may be underestimating that eBay guy though, because 1.5 billion is more realistic.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 10:25:39 AM by notclay »
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milorafferty

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #110 on: March 16, 2016, 10:30:06 AM »
Quote from: notclay on March 16, 2016, 10:22:21 AM
Quote from: milorafferty on March 16, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
I have not used my Carnage hardly, just too damn strong for the conditions I see. I'll gladly take advantage of this to trade it for another Revolt Havoc.


I have an original Jackal that is still NIB. Maybe I will hang onto it and sell it next year for a billion dollars to some idiot on eBay.  :o ;D

Now that's funny, and probably true.  You may be underestimating that eBay guy though, because 1.5 billion is more realistic.


I was referring to my profit AFTER eBay and PayPal fees.  ;)
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J_w73

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #111 on: March 16, 2016, 10:30:54 AM »
It is pretty simple. A ball with .060 differential leaves no manufacturing tolerance.  Perhaps the ball that was submitted was under the .060 limit.  Motiv could have changed a raw material in the filler or changed a process that unknowingly put the ball over the RG diff. limit.  They probably should have check this but it happens all the time in all industries.  In my industry they try to substitute materials all the time in favor of a cheaper or more available material.  Guess what? Even though the material is supposed to be a suitable substitute, sometimes it screws everything up..
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WOWZERS

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #112 on: March 16, 2016, 10:36:01 AM »
I know densities can change diffs dramatically. I wonder if somehow a raw material with a different density was delivered to Motiv for use, Motiv didn't check the raw material, and for whatever reason, Motiv didn't pull any balls off the line to test???

Still falls on Motiv for not having tight enough controls, either in checking raw materials or checking finished product.
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Juggernaut

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #113 on: March 16, 2016, 10:37:14 AM »
 Like Mr. Carter, I too have remained quiet. I have just watched from the sidelines, and been amazed at the quality, and direction, of some of these replies.

 Human nature is amazing, but also a bit dumbfounding.

 USBC, for the longest time now, has been under fire for never doing anything. How many comments have we seen, crying about "What do I get for my money"? Well, here is one thing.

 RULES ENFORCEMENT!

 How the infractions came to light is not even important. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU COMPLAINING would've done exactly the same thing to any competitor who was "cheating" if you found them out, and you know you would, so don't cry foul now.

 Motiv pushed the envelope, but pushed it too far, and it is now biting them in the behind. They should've had much tighter QC on the product line, especially given that it was already designed at the upper tolerance levels, to insure against this happening. They did not, and it is going to cost them.

 As for the consumer, I feel bad for you guys. I wouldn't like it either,especially if it cost me a chunk of my own money to fix a problem created by someone else, but like I said, you should place the blame where it goes, and that is with Motiv, NOT the USBC, STORM, BRUNSWICK, or anyone else.

 That being said, I think the next ball I buy will be a Motiv. They seem like a good company that makes good products right here in the good old USA, and I like that.

 I don't really need a ball right now, but that's never stopped me before. That paypal account has been burning a hole in my pocket anyway...........................
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J_w73

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #114 on: March 16, 2016, 10:44:16 AM »
Quote from: WOWZERS on March 16, 2016, 10:36:01 AM
I know densities can change diffs dramatically. I wonder if somehow a raw material with a different density was delivered to Motiv for use, Motiv didn't check the raw material, and for whatever reason, Motiv didn't pull any balls off the line to test???

Still falls on Motiv for not having tight enough controls, either in checking raw materials or checking finished product.

agreed.
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12XSECH

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2016, 10:46:12 AM »
Gene, if you knew how to comprehend what you read you will see what I said. I never said I had proof of anything. ITS MY FEELINGS THAT ......another company had something to do with this. I would never buy a storm or brunswick piece of garbage again. AGAIN...THATS MY PERSONAL preference. For one brunswick isnt even made in the USA and I think (I THINK) storm had their hands in this. You tell me who else the people with Jackals have to turn to now at the last minute in Reno?   
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12XSECH

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #116 on: March 16, 2016, 10:52:02 AM »
The Jackal has been out since 2014....what took till 2016 for the usbc to "discover" this? Oh lets go travel the country and do field tests on the Jackals....But they dont have money for a plastic key chain? If they went around field tested other companies balls all equally and then found this....thats one thing BUT it appears they did not do this. Motiv was targeted and plain and simple.
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J_w73

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #117 on: March 16, 2016, 10:52:31 AM »
About the comments concerning the use in the PBA and also I have heard discussion about whether titles with Motiv balls should be taken away.... Do PBA balls even need to be USBC certified?  The only thing I found in the PBA rules is that the ball must be from a PBA registered company. I'm sure Motiv will not want their staffers using the ball because they can't sell it ,but I am not sure what would stop anyone from legally using the ball in PBA competition.
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WOWZERS

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #118 on: March 16, 2016, 10:58:46 AM »
Good question on the PBA use of the ball. I thin kwe have to side with the bowler because at the time, the bowler(s) believed the ball met all specs.

12X....USBC didn't fly around the country. USBC purchased balls (undrilled) and had them delivered to the USBC headquarters for testing. This was to ensure Motiv could not send them balls that Motiv knew would be under the diff max and instead, test what was going into consumer's hands.

Also, my assumption is the problem was with the Carnage. After the Carnage whooped up on the competition, I bet there was some companies look at the ball and test the ball. As I mentioned somewhere else, in the late 90's, Brian Pursel and Ebonite tore apart the Track heat to see what made that ball so good in an attempt to get in on the good because Track was handing everyone their lunch at the time.

So, said companies get some Carnages, test it, and discover the issue. because the original Jackal and the Carnage are supposed to share a core, by default, the original Jackal would/should be illegal based upon testing of the Carnage. So then USBC tested the original Jackal and found it in fact doe snot meet standards.

I highly doubt they started with the original and went from there. It started because the Carnage won some Majors.
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billdozer

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #119 on: March 16, 2016, 11:17:35 AM »
I highly doubt they started with the original and went from there. It started because the Carnage won some Majors.


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Impending Doom

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Re: Jackal and Carnage removed from USBC approved list
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2016, 11:46:17 AM »
IT'S ALL BELMOS FAULT!!!
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