Author Topic: Local bowlers & Oil Patterns (Read 9679 times)

walt8398 · « **on:** March 17, 2009, 01:59:21 AM »

Ladies & Gentlemen

This is a topic as a tournament director that I had to start because I think people need to know what it's like from a TD's perspective.

We (VMSBT & 40BBT) run tournaments because we love the game and the spirit of GOOD competition. Neither one of us are trying to pay our mortgages or car payments by running these tournaments. In fact, on occasion we both have paid more than 100% of the prize fund.

The two gripes that I have as a tournament director is the constant complaints about the scores and right/left issue. I know the right/left issue will never die. I've been bowling long enough (30+ years) to know that will go on FOREVER!

Just recently we were told that players with certain games would stop coming to events because they felt they couldn't strike enough. These are players that have won before and had success when the shots are in certain areas of the lane. As a TD we poll the bowlers to hear what type of conditions that you guys would like to see. For the past 2-3 years the choice has been the PBAX patterns. Now, it's no secret that those patterns really catered to the players who play straighter and have lower rev rates. Four out of five of the animal patterns played out and I didn't hear the guys that hook it complain or say they weren't coming to bowl anymore because they couldn't get right/strike enough. Now that the PBA has changed the ratios and length on all of the animal patterns the players that "boom it" are EATING very well. I'm sure the straight players are lighting up the phones in Seattle with complaints and bending the laneman's ear every week. Trust me it happens. I was a PBA member for 16 years and I've seen HOFers complain to lanemen for hours on end.

Here is the difference between the PBA and our local events. WE DON'T TRAVEL AROUND WITH A $30k LANE MACHINE TO SHUT OUT A CERTAIN STYLE OR HAND! When we are fortunate enough to have a center that will allow us to choose a pattern, we ALWAYS choose a pattern that is FAIR. If there is OB, it will be on both sides of the lane. If the gutter is sparking, it will spark on both sides. Sometimes we are at the mercy of the center's house shot. House shot are OK every now and then (as I have stated in other threads) but aren't the norm. These are once a month events run by TDs who also bowl. So we know what it's like to lace 'em up.

Tournament bowling was DEAD in our area from about '98 - '02. We have it good now with 3 tournament organizations. We should support ALL of our local events. 40BBT and VMSBT work very hard promoting there respective annual events. WE DO IT BECAUSE WE WANT TO NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO.
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com

Edited on 3/17/2009 10:08 AM

Edited on 3/17/2009 10:09 AM

Current Exempt · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:00:56 PM »

Why do I suck? Nice mature comment. I'm going to assume that stung a little and the truth hurt?

walt8398 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:23:29 PM »

rd2731

That's good for you. We need youth tournaments.

But as far as offsetting my income, I'm not making any payments for beach front properties with the money from my events.

As far as me running youth events, I don't want to deal with OVERBEARING parents. Not jealous of Money Bags at all. I'm VERY HAPPY for Barry Tyler and his crew. As I've stated before, I've known Barry and his brothers since his mother was pregnant with them bowling at FL University. Barry was one of my pupils as a youth bowler and I am very proud of what he is doing with MBST.

This thread was started just to state my point of view as a TD. Bowling isn't what it once was. I'll always believe that brackets has helped and hurt tournament bowling. It is no more about just winning the tournament anymore.
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com

walt8398 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:37:14 PM »

Let's make this clear... VMSBT isn't envious of Money Bags entries....

I repeat.... VMSBT isn't envious of Money Bags entries.

My gripe is the complaining about the conditions and left/right. Thank you PBA for starting the STUPID trend of announcing the lane condition. I do understand the idea behind it when the new owners took over because of the secrecy the lane maintenance crew had under the old PBA. Nothing like coming out for the 3rd round of qualifying and the pattern not EVEN close to the first day.

Bowling has been ruined by the high tech bowling balls and cake conditions. How can we approve pre-bowled 900s (2 of them) and I think about 10 others with these NUCLEAR BOWLING BALLS and not give Glen Allison his ring when he did it with a Yellow Dot drilled conventional in '82?
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com

Edited on 3/17/2009 7:42 PM

Edited on 3/17/2009 7:42 PM

Donald Trump · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2009, 09:08:32 PM »

I just don't understand why VMSBT and 40 boards refuse to run brackets! Why not?

Current Exempt · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2009, 09:29:49 PM »

I still don't think Walton really answered any of Rd's questions. I can tell you from the past though.....Walton couldn't make enough from his tournaments to recover the money he lost for years to BH II.

Once resin came out Bobby had a fish on the hook with Walton

BackToBasics · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2009, 10:45:07 PM »

One thing that needs to be mentioned is that part of the strong turnout to Money Bags is the idea that the field is "weaker" and you have better chances at making money. I've had several guys tell me they were going to MBs the same day that Walton had his tournament because the field was much weaker. So only is the perception that the field's weaker, but the shot will be much easier also.

CBass1724 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:53:26 AM »

quote:
The red-eye is exactly the thing im talking about.....whos the last house guy to win that tournament? Bottom line is, if you want Joe Bowler to bowl on a regualr basis, it seems they need to be easy. Look at Jim Smiths quick and cheap, use to get 80-100 total entries when they were easy, started putting out PBA patterns and couldn't get 40 total. Any good bowler will always want them tougher, but on the same hand they will still bowl when they are easy.

You were the last house guy to win the Red-Eye!

All kidding aside, everything that needs to be said about entries and conditions is in the blocked quote above.

I would guess there are around 15-20 guys (give or take a few) in the area that will bowl anything no matter how hard or easy the conditions are - so they will show up no matter what. Unfortunately they are in the minority and you cannot cater to the minority. The majority in nova/dc/md are the HOUSE BOWLERS who have insanely high averages and like high scores. They won't bowl when it's tough because most of the time they won't do well or they won't enjoy it. It's their money and if they don't want to bowl on something difficult where they will lose, you can't blame them.

The only way to attract the masses is to put out an easy shot. Everybody likes to bowl well, so let them have high scores! Nevermind the fact that those 15-20 guys that show up everywhere (hard or easy) do most of the winning, but you need the so-called "donators" to show up to boost the prize fund and number of cash spots.

Side action is where a lot of the money is at anyway, for TD's and the players, (brackets, surv board, etc) and you just need those special 8 guys that want EVERYTHING. If you supplement the house bowlers into that pool, your chances of having (in theory) infinite brackets is greater. If you have 20 people show up to a tournament, obviously it is harder to run a boat load of brackets.

The bottom line is if you want entries, wall 'em up. Those guys that travel everywhere to bowl and prefer the hard stuff (trust me, I understand where you are coming from)...well it's not really about what you want, it's about what everybody else wants because you are outnumbered in the bowling community.

As far as the left/right issue, it is just a matter of less traffic being on the left. If it's hard on the left in the beginning, the chances of it breaking down and getting easier is slim. Same thing if it starts off easy, more than likely it will stay that way. We all know the right side changes frame to frame because of the equipment (read: SURFACE) being used these days as well as the quantity of bowlers on that side. It is just the way it is and you can't please everybody.

Also, the announcement of the details of the pattern being used is just plain ridiculous. I am all for telling people whether it is a house shot or a sport shot (because if it's a THS that = more entries!) -- but just leave it at that! Getting into length, volume, etc. is just unnecessary.
--------------------
C.J.

CBass1724 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:09:33 AM »

Sort of related...I've had this conversation with Mike L and a couple of our close friends about if we were given the chance to bowl Walter Ray head to head, would you rather it be on a THS or a PBA/sport pattern?

Either way I'd personally get my brains beat in no matter what, but we agreed that the obvious choice was the THS. His advantage on the tougher pattern is far greater than it would be on a THS. At least if the match was on a THS, I know that if I carry well, I can beat him. It doesn't mean that anybody is better than him if they beat WRW on a THS, but the point of this example is that you'd show up to try if the shot was easy.
--------------------
C.J.

LAStrikesALot · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:50:54 AM »

quote:
TD and bowlers get paid regardless of the outcome. If the TD is not getting paid or compensatied, then what is the purpose of an administration fee, membership fee and insurance clause?

Not true at all. 40 Boards does not the cut monthly tournaments AT ALL. All entry fee money goes to the prize fund minus bowling fees.

If we wanted to make money, we would start a real business that is profitable.

Just like some donate their time to the youth for scholarships, we donate our time to adults for the integrity of the game and in the spirit of competition.

No one is complaining here because we don't make money or because we don't get as many entries as Money Bags. I think the complaint is more like a vent that despite people's attempts to make the masses happy, it just doesn't happen. It's quite annoying to try every month to make our events what the bowlers want--large payouts, lots of brackets--and then on top of not necessarily succeeding at that, have to put up with the whining of those that do come out just because that particular month the shot didn't play to their strengths (house shot or not).

I can think of at least 5 people that have told me on differnet occasions that they don't want to come out to play for $500 with 20-30 guys there. Some of them show up to the event and proudly proclaim, "i'm not bowling if there aren't 30 guys." Ok, that is your right. But if those 5 guys all showed up, that's almost one more spot we would pay in our event. It's that whole circle thing. Can't get more entries (and pay more) unless people come out but people won't come out because of (they claim) a lack of entries (and payout).
--------------------
Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com

Edited on 3/18/2009 11:09 AM

walt8398 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:56:20 AM »

LA & CJ

Thank you. Very well said.

--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com

Mr Straight Ball · « **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2009, 10:27:26 AM »

CBASS you're right those "regulars" show up to bowl regardless. We've been trying to offer a variety and we knew going in that there would be some barking. Why, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone happy!

*Sept @ Ritchie Yvette Ford's ladies league shot
*Oct @ Dundalk house shot, it was slightly unpredictable pair to pair.
*Nov @ Annandale their version of the PBA Shark
*Jan @ Ft. Meade Kegel's Rt. 66 and it played tighter than I have ever seen it play
*Feb @ Bowl America Glen Burnie house
*Mar @ Laurel house

So for those that think we make it overly complicated shot wise, we don't! Bowlers tend to pick and choose but then you miss "your day" possibly by doing that.

The first year we ran Opposites Attract Mixed Doubles we tried something, it did not work as they were brutal. Last year, we modified the house shot and the scores were reasonable to make the cuts. On a whole, the field was okay with the pattern so we are hoping it works out the same this year.
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h

k?
40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop

CBass1724 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:40:46 AM »

If Tony, Jeff, and others were doing this to only make a buck, then every single tournament would be on a house shot. There would be more entries and tons more brackets which means more money in their wallets. I am assuming it's either $5 brackets that pay $25-10 or $6 that are $30-10 (profit of $5 and/or $8, respectively). If you were running a tournament, strictly from a profit stand point, would you rather have 20 brackets or 120 brackets at a minimum of $5 profit per bracket?

For these folks, they do it because they love the game of bowling and they all know that it SHOULD be competed on tougher patterns, as well as the easy ones. They know if they announce a tougher pattern, entries will be down, but you can't expect bowling to survive if you only bowl on easy shots. There is a happy medium somewhere but I'm not sure where that point is.

There is also a reason why there are no PBA National title holders from our area.
--------------------
C.J.

Edited on 3/18/2009 11:53 AM

Mr Straight Ball · « **Reply #28 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:56:56 AM »

RD and CBass slow down...

Maryland has several bowlers with national level accomplishments. In 1983 Mike Lastowski won the Masters, plus we have PBA title holders Tim Criss & Danny Wiseman.

VMSBT & Money Bags aren't taking from the bowlers by asking for $5 in expense money. All of our "business models" are on the same level. TNBA is a BUSINESS and for those of you who don't do the math, let me break it down...

2009 Eastern Rhodman (this weekend)
Men 36% Women & seniors 35%

Do any of you know what those numbers represent? Those numbers represent the percent of your entry fee that you will never see again! Thanks to USBC's rules, tournaments are allowed to group lineage and expense money on one line! This is significant because it keeps the bowlers from knowing EXACTLY what was paid to the house and what was paid to their pocket.

That's an organization in it for the business!
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h

k?
40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop

rotomike · « **Reply #29 on:** March 18, 2009, 12:08:15 PM »

Random ramblings before I go into a meeting...

Cbass-

Tour Titlists:
Danny Wiseman
Joy Esterson
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines

Regional Champions:
Jim Lewis
Terry Wiley (if I am not mistaken)
Bobby Hall
Kenny Lowe
Chris Blackmore
(I'm very sure I have missed many more sorry guys

)

Team USA:
Tony Chapman (National Amateur Champion)
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines
John Gaines
Joy Esterson

I don't think that is the point...

There is a climate today where it is so much easier to tear down versus build up.

The distinction between Handicap and Scratch has also been pushed wider by ABT and NABI being on the scene.

The biggest issue is that people are now too complacement and afraid to put themselves out there for fear of failure and how much work it is to get better on shots that is not the Wednesday Night Mens HDCP condition.

Back in the day I was living in Catonsville but drove to Annandale to compete in the NOVA All-stars league. Long drive home at 1am. WHY? Cause that was where the competition was. Very few people are willing to put themselves out there like that today. "Why should I drive all that way to struggle when I can bowl my 3 or 6 games per week and average 225 and make my ego happy? "

We now have 3 - 4 solid tournament organizers. Let's try not to tear them down.

BTW for tournament purposes there should be NO announcement of the tournament condition until the tournament is over.

Just my ramblings....back to work

CBass1724 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 18, 2009, 12:09:54 PM »

quote:
RD and CBass slow down...

Maryland has several bowlers with national level accomplishments. In 1983 Mike Lastowski won the Masters, plus we have PBA title holders Tim Criss & Danny Wiseman.

VMSBT & Money Bags aren't taking from the bowlers by asking for $5 in expense money. All of our "business models" are on the same level. TNBA is a BUSINESS and for those of you who don't do the math, let me break it down...

I guess I view Baltimore as sort of being out of our immediate "area" but Criss and Wiseman are in a class of their own. Usually the only local stuff they bowl are/were the Hammer 5k and 10k's. I'm sort of talking about people closer into DC that grew up on bumper bowling. In my opinion EVD will get a title very soon. Also the common theme here is non-NOVA bowlers, LOL.

I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way Jeff. I said if you guys were into it for the money, then you'd only be worried about getting max entries, which increases the total brackets. My point is that you guys do it for the game of bowling which involves bowling on harder shots, which includes losing entries on those days.
--------------------
C.J.

Author Topic: Local bowlers & Oil Patterns (Read 9679 times)

walt8398

Local bowlers & Oil Patterns

Current Exempt

Re: Local bowlers & Oil Patterns

walt8398

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walt8398

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Donald Trump

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Current Exempt

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BackToBasics

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CBass1724

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CBass1724

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LAStrikesALot

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walt8398

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Mr Straight Ball

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CBass1724

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Mr Straight Ball

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rotomike

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CBass1724

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