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Author Topic: williams., jr. beats weber......again  (Read 6004 times)

DON DRAPER

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williams., jr. beats weber......again
« on: November 02, 2007, 11:51:44 AM »
walter ray williams, jr., continues to own pete weber in matchplay competition by beating him 4 games to 0 in the round of 8. williams, jr. beat weber by an average of 53 pins per game in games of 246-182, 247-160, 268-237, and 246-215. on sundays telecast walter ray will take on jeff lizzi who beat edward vandaniker 4 games to 0.

 

revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 11:18:17 PM »
I don't want to beat this horse to death, but I never said Pete is the best bowler. I only said he had the best physical game the sport has ever seen (and ask just about anybody infinitely more qualified than either you or I, and they will confirm this fact).

Yes, Walter wins. He makes spares. He repeats. But have you seen his form, his physical game, his release, his coming up at the line on every shot? It is not, I repeat, it is not, anything special. PDW's is.

Bottom line, in my mind, Walter still isn't the best. Carter easily bests him, and so does that other Weber. Not to mention Anthony. Walter is one of the best, but by no means the greatest ever.

DON DRAPER

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2007, 12:19:31 AM »
why is it in other sports the competitor with the most wins is considered the best....yet in bowling it isn't( at least on this website )? on the pga tour the player with the most wins or most majors is considered the best. in professional tennis the player with the most titles and/or grand slam titles is considered the best. why not in professional bowling ?

revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2007, 12:36:50 AM »
Because only in bowling (at least modern bowling) is the result not always determined by technical skill or physical talent. Tiger Woods wins because he is quite simply the most athletic and technically sound golfer. Walter wins...because he does, because his game has benefited tremendously because of modern equipment. Don't get me wrong, he's good -- but could he have won 40+ with just a rubber ball or Yellow Dot? How many spares would he be shooting? How many less strikes would he have?

Also, have you looked at the comparison between Carter and Walter? It's quite clear who the best really is/was.

Anyways, I'm all for Walter being included as one of the Top 5. But, sorry, he's not at the top.

If I had to field a team:

1) Don Carter
2) Dick Weber
3) Earl Anthony
4) John "Count" Gengler (I have my reasons), Jimmy Smith (the original undisputed champ), Hank Marino, or Andy Varipapa
5) Walter Ray Williams Jr.

VBP-Dustin

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2007, 12:57:47 AM »
well walter ray has won more titles   but when did he win the titles?

he starting winning titles once resin came out which changed his game and carry.  before 1993 he had 6 titles in 12 years!  thats 1 title for every 2 years   which isnt so great  however once resin bowling balls came out what happened he started winning.    

before 1993 pete weber had 19 titls    wow  what does say  when they change the game by the way of bowling balls it also changes scoring and who scores better.   if everyone used urethane  you wouldnt see walter hardly at all  you would see weber

revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2007, 01:14:12 AM »
^^^^

Exactly my point.

DON DRAPER

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2007, 07:16:47 AM »
the resin thing again ? won't you guys ever get over that. ernie schlegel has been quoted as saying that plastic balls made mark roth. does he mean that if rubber balls were still used in the late 70's roth wouldn't have won as much ? since pete weber won many titles in the 80's with urethane equipment that means if urethane hadn't come along he wouldn't have won any with plastic, right ?

BowlingWolf

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2007, 08:41:21 AM »
quote:
Because only in bowling (at least modern bowling) is the result not always determined by technical skill or physical talent. Tiger Woods wins because he is quite simply the most athletic and technically sound golfer. Walter wins...because he does, because his game has benefited tremendously because of modern equipment. Don't get me wrong, he's good -- but could he have won 40+ with just a rubber ball or Yellow Dot? How many spares would he be shooting? How many less strikes would he have?

Also, have you looked at the comparison between Carter and Walter? It's quite clear who the best really is/was.

Anyways, I'm all for Walter being included as one of the Top 5. But, sorry, he's not at the top.

If I had to field a team:

1) Don Carter
2) Dick Weber
3) Earl Anthony
4) John "Count" Gengler (I have my reasons), Jimmy Smith (the original undisputed champ), Hank Marino, or Andy Varipapa
5) Walter Ray Williams Jr.


Rev,

FYI, Don Carter has ALWAYS maintained that Dick Weber was THE BEST he's ever seen.
One could agree or disagree with that; it is his opinion.

In my book, however, I would rate Earl Anthony as the absolute best.  

His knowledge level was unparallel, and his performance left more people in the dust at a higher rate than anyone in history.  Too bad he didn’t bowl a few more years, this would be a moot point.

Another player, made very conspicuous by his absence on your list, is Mark Roth (and Mark happened to bowl during Earl's time, which goes to show how dominating those 2 were).

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revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2007, 09:12:05 AM »
^^^ Okay, debate the order of my top 3...Carter might say Weber is better, but the bottom line is that Carter won more (4 All-Stars, 5 World Invitationals, 18 top five finishes in one year, etc.). Putting Weber at a close #2 is easy, though. He competed in, what, 3, 4, 5 decades at a high level? That's unbelievable.

I would stand by Anthony at #3, behind both Carter and Weber. You've got to remember that title wise, it's not like Carter was out on Tour for very long. He was from the decade or two just before Anthony.

That gets it down to the last 2 spots, and I don't think Mark Roth (as phenomenal as he was, as revolutionary as he was) stands a chance.

Pick one of the few old-timers for spot #4 -- those were the Carters and Anthonys of a bygone era. Jimmy Smith was the undisputed champ for more than a decade, and even after that, he was still the biggest name somebody could beat. Count Gengler never really got involved in the match game tournaments, but he toured with Smith, and could beat anybody, especially for the first several years after he arrived from Luxembourg. He suffered an injury, though, in 1917 or 1918, and, though he continued to bowl at a high level, I think this affected him (however, there is no mention of this in the history books; Gengler was like a ghost). It was well known that he palmed the ball when he first arrived and bowled; but in later matches, he used a two-finger ball, in a sense confirming my suspicion that his injury (an elbow related problem) may have caused him to modify his game slightly. Had he not been injured, and not been a mysterious Bavarian hustler, Gengler would be up for discussion -- the man was once seen hitting a nickel put on the five-pin spot over and over again. Marino (who pretty much took over for a few years after Smith and Jimmy Blouin) and Varipapa (winner of back-to-back All-Stars at ages 55 and 56 respectively), too, were great bowlers.

Last, Walter has to be included, no matter what (including the resin thing). It might prevent him from being considered the best ever (in my book), but he still is one of the best -- no one can deny that he has triumphed over the likes of Norm, Pete, Bohn, and others 40+ times.


tonybowls

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2007, 05:28:19 PM »
I have this to say. WALTER RAY IS THE BEST PERIOD!!! AND WHEN HE WINS PLAYER OF THE YEAR AGAIN THIS YEAR WHAT WILL YOU GUYS HAVE TO SAY THEN?

J_Mac

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2007, 05:34:59 PM »
quote:
I have this to say. WALTER RAY IS THE BEST PERIOD!!! AND WHEN HE WINS PLAYER OF THE YEAR AGAIN THIS YEAR WHAT WILL YOU GUYS HAVE TO SAY THEN?


Why don't you just STFU?!

I like the guy as much as the next person does, but I'll say what I said earlier today when Randy/Rob was talking about Mika being a contender for player of the year already.

Thats absolutely ludicrous... It's only the 3rd week of the season!  WRW Jr. could easily go without another win this year, just like last year.
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JBracer2

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2007, 05:37:12 PM »
quote:
well walter ray has won more titles   but when did he win the titles?

he starting winning titles once resin came out which changed his game and carry.  before 1993 he had 6 titles in 12 years!  thats 1 title for every 2 years   which isnt so great  however once resin bowling balls came out what happened he started winning.    

before 1993 pete weber had 19 titls    wow  what does say  when they change the game by the way of bowling balls it also changes scoring and who scores better.   if everyone used urethane  you wouldnt see walter hardly at all  you would see weber



I second that Dustin!
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JBracer2

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2007, 05:39:06 PM »
quote:
I have this to say. WALTER RAY IS THE BEST PERIOD!!! AND WHEN HE WINS PLAYER OF THE YEAR AGAIN THIS YEAR WHAT WILL YOU GUYS HAVE TO SAY THEN?


Resin!!! And pipe it up 10 every show!
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revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2007, 06:06:48 PM »
tonybowls...

If only you could back up your assertion with historical evidence or a reasonable argument...I bet you don't have half a clue about how good any of the other bowlers I listed were...

charlest

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2007, 06:08:38 PM »
quote:
well walter ray has won more titles   but when did he win the titles?

he starting winning titles once resin came out which changed his game and carry.  before 1993 he had 6 titles in 12 years!  thats 1 title for every 2 years   which isnt so great  however once resin bowling balls came out what happened he started winning.    

before 1993 pete weber had 19 titls    wow  what does say  when they change the game by the way of bowling balls it also changes scoring and who scores better.   if everyone used urethane  you wouldnt see walter hardly at all  you would see weber


BrunsDustin,

WRW was player of the year in 1986 (or thereabouts), a urethane year. Your argument does not hold water. WRW is still then and now better than Weber.
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revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2007, 06:14:17 PM »
^^^ Nobody is doubting or debating that...I only said Weber has a better physical game...Williams is better...but, sorry, he ain't the best ever.