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Author Topic: williams., jr. beats weber......again  (Read 6003 times)

DON DRAPER

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williams., jr. beats weber......again
« on: November 02, 2007, 11:51:44 AM »
walter ray williams, jr., continues to own pete weber in matchplay competition by beating him 4 games to 0 in the round of 8. williams, jr. beat weber by an average of 53 pins per game in games of 246-182, 247-160, 268-237, and 246-215. on sundays telecast walter ray will take on jeff lizzi who beat edward vandaniker 4 games to 0.

 

VBP-Dustin

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2007, 06:15:07 PM »
ok so he won player of the year during his best year of 12 before urethane   it was one year im sorry i just dont see how everyone thinks walter ray is the best    i know he has more titles than anyone    anyone remember amelto?  guess what he was great in the 80's  any idea why?   well HE MADE his ball hit  he wasnt given power by a bowling ball

and thats true of all striaght players today  
im sure jbracers can attest to this   in st louis i can name about 25+ people here that average 235+  that when in their prime in the 80's and urethane era couldnt average 190  why do you think that is?    the bowling balls today are 100 times better today for carry   plain and simple    

i now realize that only about 2% of ballreviews memebrs know anything about bowling

charlest

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2007, 06:24:50 PM »
Regarding Carter and Weber,

When both bowled together (at the same events), it was basically a given that Carter would win a high percentage of the time (like 80%+). I know it was way back in the dawn of prehistory for most of you, but Dick Weber did not come into his own as a premier player, until AFTER Carter retired.

When they were in the same events, it was acknowledged that Carter was the better money player.

One other thought about Carter: Remember he was the first MILLION DOLLAR athlete. Ebonite signed him to a contract for $1,000,000.00!! That says a lot in the 1950/1960s.
 
Of course, no one who knows the leastthing about bowling would ever say that Dick Weber was not a GREAT bowler.

Carter and Weber and WRW are the kind of people, who, when in front of the public, put themselves down as not as good as someone else, like Carter's praise of Weber in a previous reply. They were publicly humble, even if in their own minds, they knew they were veyr good bowlers.

Earl Anthony must be regarded as the Babe Ruth or Sandy Koufax of bowling in  that no one obliterated the competition and won such a high percentage of title and money in such a short period of time. Not for nothing was he known, amongst his peers, as a the DOOMSDAY STROKING MACHINE. No one before or since has has such a deadly reputation, and for darned good reason.  No one since or before had such a nickname, indicating what his peers thought of him.

In 25 or 50 years, I believe bowlers will be listed in these categories:

FIRST
Carter
Dick Weber
Williams
Anthony

SECOND
Roth
Pete Weber
Holman
Duke
Hardwick
Parker Bohn (possibly)
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revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2007, 06:58:00 PM »
^^^

So...charlest...you basically agree with me. I don't see any real difference between those thoughts and my own, except for you leaving out the "really"-old-timers, such as Smith, Gengler, Varipapa, and Marino.

I would also pretty much agree with your "second" tier.

Rileybowler

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2007, 07:11:31 PM »
To say Weber has a better physical game and not mental is hogwash mental is part of the game its a very big part of the game. How about today Walter needs 3 strikes in the 10th to put pressure on Lizzi , all Lizzi has to do to win is strike in the 10th he didn't thats the mental and it sure is a big part of the game. Walter Ray won his first player of the year in 1986 and he is still competing at a very high level how many others can say that he is the best without a doubt and all the players will tell you that
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revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2007, 07:29:46 PM »
Another ignorant post.

1) There is a clear difference between physical and mental games. PDW has a better physical game than Williams. That doesn't change who is better overall, FOR THE LAST TIME. I NEVER SAID PDW WAS BETTER OVERALL AS A BOWLER -- I ONLY SAID BETTER AS A "PHYSICAL BOWLING SPECIMEN."

2) To say Walter is the best is to blatantly ignore almost a hundred years of history. Clearly, you, too, don't have the slightest clue about bowling's past.

To all those who still think Williams is the best of all-time, I salute you. Somehow, you are able to remain firm in a belief even though the evidence at hand (i.e. history) tells us otherwise.

Dan Belcher

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2007, 08:07:14 PM »
quote:
ok so he won player of the year during his best year of 12 before urethane   it was one year im sorry i just dont see how everyone thinks walter ray is the best    i know he has more titles than anyone    anyone remember amelto?  guess what he was great in the 80's  any idea why?   well HE MADE his ball hit  he wasnt given power by a bowling ball

and thats true of all striaght players today  
im sure jbracers can attest to this   in st louis i can name about 25+ people here that average 235+  that when in their prime in the 80's and urethane era couldnt average 190  why do you think that is?    the bowling balls today are 100 times better today for carry   plain and simple    

i now realize that only about 2% of ballreviews memebrs know anything about bowling
So they can hook the snot out of a ball.  Big deal.  How does that make them "better?"  I'm confused by your entire argument being based on that premise.

VBP-Dustin

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2007, 09:43:28 PM »
its not about hook    its about making a ball hit  plain and simple

JBracer2

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2007, 05:21:41 PM »
I have seen Weber and Williams in person before resin. Pete could play any place on the lane and make the ball hit. Bowled many pba tournaments in the 80s. No one is saying that walter is not great. Just a product of resin. Like it or not. No different that Barry Bonds. Not the best HR hitter just has the most. Dustin we know in Stl. want scores straight is great!
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Edited on 11/5/2007 6:22 PM

Edited on 11/5/2007 6:24 PM

charlest

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2007, 05:42:59 PM »
quote:
its not about hook    its about making a ball hit  plain and simple


Sorry, but no, it is NOT about making a ball hit. It's about scoring under pressure. Just because you don't like him, WRW, and you say that it's only because of resin since 1993 that he, WRW, is only now in this era, the greatest, does not make it true.  Resin is part of bowling, now and forever, whether you like it or not.

So you live in the past and worship Pete Weber, who just so happens to have be from St. Louis, all you like. Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not change reality.
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JBracer2

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2007, 06:14:30 PM »
Not saying anything that we all don't all know. Since Resin the scores have gone up. More for some than others. Not living in the past,Just saying that sometimes the most doesn't always mean the best. Walter can strike when he needs it that is what makes him great.
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BowlingWolf

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2007, 09:03:45 AM »
This "greatest" argument, is an exercise in futility.

Granted that we can throw out some names along with fact about each, and proclaim their obvious virtues.

That doesn't change the fact that one athlete can not stand out head and shoulders above all others as the singular "greatest"; that is not possible to determine as a definite given.

We can state that so-and-so was the greatest for a certain time-frame, and perhaps many people would agree.

But to say that one is without a shadow of a doubt better than anyone else for all-time, is quite a difficult task to prove convincingly.

This applies to any sport, of course, as it does to other interests, such as music, acting, art, etc.
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shelley

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2007, 09:23:09 AM »
quote:
the bowling balls today are 100 times better today for carry   plain and simple


Must be that only the people winning are the ones throwing these new balls.  There's no way WRW would have started winning with resin in '93 had his opponents not been saddled with the plastic and urethane equipment from '92.  Had all his opponents been able to throw reactive balls, he might never have won another tournament.

SH

BigDogBowling

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2007, 09:36:44 AM »
WELL I GUESS THIS HORSE HAS BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH. IT HAS AS MUCH CHANCE OF ENDING AS ABBOTT AND COSTELLO'S "WHO'S ON FIRST".

DP3

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2007, 10:17:02 AM »
I would say it's harder to win a tournament now for WRW than it was for Earl to win during his day.  Back then you had 20 guys above the lever and no one else was close.  In this day in age, with TQR's and matchplay round you have 100 guys who all have a shot depending on who can match up the best.  Walter Ray's greatness is equalized due to the modern game.  Therefore when he wins now I think it means more because there is more talent and more to the game than just hitting a mark over and over with the same ball.
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revTrex

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Re: williams., jr. beats weber......again
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2007, 11:10:41 AM »
But in the past, it wasn't just hitting your mark. They hit the pocket just as much, if not more than the current bowlers. What you had to do to be successful was carry, something the increased entry angles of today's equipment helps provide.

I'm not taking away from what Walter has done. But if you are to evaluate who might be the best, you can't separate him from the era in which he most dominated, i.e. resin.

Would it be better if you called him the best bowler of the resin era?

And yes, I am one of those few folks that think resin and synthetic lanes are two of the worst things that happened to this sport. Hell, I think there should be a game ball, or at least much more strict ball governance. But that's a whole other issue...in my mind, it would completely level the playing field. Those who can CREATE entry angle would do better than those that cannot. It would make bowling a legitimate sport again, because only those capable of a certain feat would find success. Yes, it would limit participation, and yes, it's elitist in an athletic sense. But that's what every other sport has (including golf, a la El Tigre).

Bottom line: Walter is ONE of the best. However, even he has not yet matched the greatness of Weber or Carter. And he doesn't have the winning percentage of Anthony. That puts him at 4 or 5, depending on how high you rank the really old guys.

ON EDIT: Shelley, we all know that everyone today uses the equipment, and should (hypothetically) benefit all the same. However, you can't deny that reactive resin and nigh-nuclear-powered cores benefit folks like Walter more than they do folks like PDW or Amletto. In fact, Amletto struggled AS A RESULT of resin. Meanwhile, Walter's title count went up. Again, not taking anything away from him (because he took advantage, and learned how to best play the modern game), but he was undoubtedly benefited as a direct result of evolving equipment, whereas others were not benefited to the same degree.

Edited on 11/6/2007 12:17 PM