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Author Topic: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?  (Read 8357 times)

chitown

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Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« on: February 11, 2009, 05:08:35 AM »
I'm just curious if the rumors about Duke burning up Fagans line during practice before the final match are true?

I wasn't their but watched it on TV.  I saw Duke practicing the outside line on TV right before they broke for commercial.  After the commercial time out the players were done practicing.  


 

Zef Olantar

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 03:36:43 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:

This comment in Duke's defense is like a THB blaming his shoe for missing the 10-pin.


Hello......as I've said before, this is common practice!  And how do you know he, or all the other pros that try different lines before they bowl their match, was trying to mess up his line?  Were you there?  They all try different lines before their matches just in case if they have to make a drastic move on the lanes.  Besides, even if it was done on purpose, who cares?  Whatever it takes, baby!  You're just blind and oblivious to the FACT that this is a common practice on tour.  The pros I talked to at the 2004 Masters admitted to it.  

LEARN TO LIKE IT, baby!
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Actually i am very aware of how things work, as i've been there first hand and HAVE witnessed it.  You're the one that is oblivious because you are too busy humping Dukes leg while having your head stuck in his @$$

If you're SO aware of how things work, why are you being an ass?
Act your age............NOT your IQ !
You're just a Duke-hater......admit it, and you'll be forgiven for all your sins! Dufus!

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Zef Olantar

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 03:39:14 PM »
quote:
I was there, watching it live. He was not burning up Fagan's line. He was using a dull Street Rod Pearl on his own line.


THANK YOU!

Where's Mr. Dufus now?


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riggs

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 07:26:26 PM »
I wrote this for the Ten Pin Journal in 2005-06:


   If you missed last season's Denny's PBA World Championship you missed one of the all-time best blow-ups in PBA history.
   Brian Voss memorably lost his composure in losing to Chris Loschetter, at one point grabbing a camera and exclaiming, "Ban sanding bowling balls!" although his exact words were not clear at the time.
   Voss's actions caused an uproar on the PBA message boards, with some questioning his sportsmanship.
   Voss answered by explaining that Loschetter had rolled a sanded ball during most of practice up 7-9 boards toward the 3-pin, not even trying to hit the pocket. When the show started, Loschetter, who throws a much bigger hook than Voss's normal style, moved in and swung his shot toward that dried out area.
   "I don't agree with this," Voss wrote. "Unfortunately, there's no rule to prevent it. . . . Nothing against him, just the rules that allow integrity to be destroyed."
   The incident brought to the forefront a long-simmering issue that comes up in regional competition as well.
      Is it cheating to try to "set up" a lane? Does it make a difference if you do it to make your shot easier or your opponent's shot harder?
   Clearly, it is not cheating, since there's no rule defining practice. And it would be almost impossible to craft one – who is going to be the judge, and what about spare shots and changing lines and balls?
   But is it ethical?
      My aim when I compete is to win while playing within the rules. So if the rules allow me to do something that can help me win, I do it.
   I have rolled shots with the aim of "setting up" a lane – usually to help my line and once to hurt an opponents.
   "Defense" is rare because two players usually play similar lines, but I did it against close friend Jeff Carter in 2004-05 where I was playing an outside line and he was playing an inside line. He was crushing me for the second straight game in a best 3-of-5 match. So for the last few frames of the second game I went in to his area with my most sanded ball and threw shots that dried up that area.
   He then struggled the next two games and I tied the match before he finally made a major adjustment the fifth game and shot a huge game to win the match.
   Without that "defense" I probably would have lost in three straight games.
   Did I have mixed emotions? Sure. (Carter had no problem with what I did.)
   But what really bothered me is that the rules put me in that situation.
   The PBA Tour recently changed the practice rules in an effort to prevent setting up a lane.
   Prior to the change, players had 15 minutes of practice on their match play pair. That has been cut to just five minutes – so long as open pairs are available for players to loosen up before the official practice on their pairs.  
   While 15 minutes is plenty of time to use a sanded ball to dry up an area of the lane with shot after shot – or a plastic ball to carry oil down in a certain way -- five is problematic.
      The five-minute rule – which regionals will use when extra lanes are available – is a good start, but to completely eliminate "setting up" a lane, I believe the PBA should adopt Pete Weber's oft-stated position and bring back moving pairs every game during match play – just as it was done during the old round-robin format.
   Then you wouldn't be able to sacrifice a game in an effort to win the next one by playing "defense" as I did against Carter.

Hogsharley

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 07:35:06 PM »
Beautiful explanation Riggs.

I believe that Duke did ruin Fagan's line. Duke knew that Fagan couldn't play outside and his own line was fresh. It was Duke's little insurance policy just in case he couldn't carry.
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los2003

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 07:47:56 PM »
that is stated the bast i have seen yet...

Kid Jete

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 08:12:10 PM »
Good for Norm if he did it on purpose.  The smarter bowl, and apparently the better one as well, took home the title.

chitown

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 10:16:25 PM »
quote:
I was there with a few friends sitting 10 to 20 feet down lane in the cheap seats.  He was using what appeared to be a sanded street rod pearl during warmups.  I watched him throw maybe 4 to 5 shots on the pair between 20 and 25 but the majority of his warmup shots were straight up the gutter between 3 and 5.  He was hitting light pocket on most of those shots.  

I was also there Thursday for qualifying and match play.  During early qualifying and match play Duke was playing straight down around 5 and 7.  In later qualifying and matchplay he was playing around 20 and 25.    

As for the championship match, I think Duke was trying to get a read on the lanes with the few shots around Fagan's line, because Fagan was already playing deeper than where Duke had thrown.  The majority of Duke's warmup shots were with the street rod pearl.  Duke threw the Hyroad only 2 or 3 times down around 5 prior to the start of the match.  When I bowled at Fountain Bowl, the lanes transitioned quick, so I was not surprised to see Fagan run out of room.  Fagan obviously did well during the show, but I knew that if he had made it to the the championship match that he was going to have no line.



Thanks for setting the record straight.

If I had to sit and wait for a bowler until the championship match to bowl on a pair I would be trying different parts of the lane to find what area is best to play.  I see nothing wrong with Duke trying to find a line.  I don't think Duke was purposly trying to screw up Fagans line otherwise he would of spent the entire time inside.


chitown

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 10:28:13 PM »
quote:
I wrote this for the Ten Pin Journal in 2005-06:


   If you missed last season's Denny's PBA World Championship you missed one of the all-time best blow-ups in PBA history.
   Brian Voss memorably lost his composure in losing to Chris Loschetter, at one point grabbing a camera and exclaiming, "Ban sanding bowling balls!" although his exact words were not clear at the time.
   Voss's actions caused an uproar on the PBA message boards, with some questioning his sportsmanship.
   Voss answered by explaining that Loschetter had rolled a sanded ball during most of practice up 7-9 boards toward the 3-pin, not even trying to hit the pocket. When the show started, Loschetter, who throws a much bigger hook than Voss's normal style, moved in and swung his shot toward that dried out area.
   "I don't agree with this," Voss wrote. "Unfortunately, there's no rule to prevent it. . . . Nothing against him, just the rules that allow integrity to be destroyed."
   The incident brought to the forefront a long-simmering issue that comes up in regional competition as well.
      Is it cheating to try to "set up" a lane? Does it make a difference if you do it to make your shot easier or your opponent's shot harder?
   Clearly, it is not cheating, since there's no rule defining practice. And it would be almost impossible to craft one – who is going to be the judge, and what about spare shots and changing lines and balls?
   But is it ethical?
      My aim when I compete is to win while playing within the rules. So if the rules allow me to do something that can help me win, I do it.
   I have rolled shots with the aim of "setting up" a lane – usually to help my line and once to hurt an opponents.
   "Defense" is rare because two players usually play similar lines, but I did it against close friend Jeff Carter in 2004-05 where I was playing an outside line and he was playing an inside line. He was crushing me for the second straight game in a best 3-of-5 match. So for the last few frames of the second game I went in to his area with my most sanded ball and threw shots that dried up that area.
   He then struggled the next two games and I tied the match before he finally made a major adjustment the fifth game and shot a huge game to win the match.
   Without that "defense" I probably would have lost in three straight games.
   Did I have mixed emotions? Sure. (Carter had no problem with what I did.)
   But what really bothered me is that the rules put me in that situation.
   The PBA Tour recently changed the practice rules in an effort to prevent setting up a lane.
   Prior to the change, players had 15 minutes of practice on their match play pair. That has been cut to just five minutes – so long as open pairs are available for players to loosen up before the official practice on their pairs.  
   While 15 minutes is plenty of time to use a sanded ball to dry up an area of the lane with shot after shot – or a plastic ball to carry oil down in a certain way -- five is problematic.
      The five-minute rule – which regionals will use when extra lanes are available – is a good start, but to completely eliminate "setting up" a lane, I believe the PBA should adopt Pete Weber's oft-stated position and bring back moving pairs every game during match play – just as it was done during the old round-robin format.
   Then you wouldn't be able to sacrifice a game in an effort to win the next one by playing "defense" as I did against Carter.




Riggs, I feel that the PBA should make bowlers move to different pairs each game.  That would probably prevent any lane defense.  However, maybe lane defense is the way to play at times?

Riggs the situation you wrote about is a lot different than trying to mess up your opponents line during practice before the games begin.  I feel that's a lot different scenerio.  


blacknois

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2009, 10:41:06 PM »
all it is is smart bowling, youre telling me that if you're the number one seed, watching someone come from the bottom all the way to the top to you in the finals, you're not going to do anything to try and cool him off or get the advantage???

bowlingbear

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2009, 11:18:40 PM »
I've bowled in that ctr.It is either a deep inside with little swing shot(it's the shot Ritchie Allen played last yr.on t.v.)or straight up like Duke was playing.So hard to know what really happened.Too bad for Michael.I was pulling for him!

rockerbowler18

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2009, 11:24:39 PM »
I swear to you that it's completely true. I sat right behind Fagan, and if you don't believe me, I'll send you a picture of the sign that I made that was on TV to prove that I was there.

Duke took a sanded as he11 ball and threw it ALL OVER Fagan's line right before coming back from commercials, at which point he pulled out his hyroad and moved out before anyone could see him playing on Fagan's line.
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MelvinBrunsTrack

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2009, 05:53:56 AM »
It all come down to this, it's done on the tour. They're pro's and they all can adjust.

riggs

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2009, 06:37:06 AM »
So long as the rules are what they are, lane management is part of the game. It is not against the rules as they are now.
These are professionals trying to make a living.
It is pretty clear that PBA is not against these practices or it would change the rules.

Steve Richter

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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2009, 07:20:02 AM »
I remember reading an article that I think was originated by Schlem on how three Storm guys (Pedersen, Healey, Himmler) tried to shimwreck Barnes at the ToC the year Healey won it.  Because that was 4 years ago and my memory isn't THAT good what I can recall was that Barnes had a good look and the three of them banded together as a staff and bombed the spot he was playing, then jumped inside of that.  I'm paraphrasing for sure, but the point is it was documented that you either go on OFFENSE or you go on DEFENSE.  As long as you physically don't interfere with the other player, the rules of the game are pretty open.

As Riggs said, if the PBA wasn't okay with that gamesmanship, they would have a rule preventing it.  However, I think in order to combat it a little they have limited practice time before a show down to a few minutes or in some cases a few balls.  I thought I heard that when Anthony LaCaze made the show in Hammond, IN this year that he only got a ball or two before the lights came on.  I overheard him talking to Riggs about it at a tournament and because it wasn't directly to me I don't know if I heard what he said in the context it was intended.  Jeff, if you want to jump in here to clarify...

BTW, Riggs tell them about Bigun throwing plastic up the left side at the MALT to fry the lefties...:-)
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Re: Are the Duke rumors true or BS?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2009, 07:30:51 AM »
A win is a win and a loss is a loss.
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