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Author Topic: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls  (Read 8133 times)

BackToBasics

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Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« on: December 20, 2010, 01:49:20 AM »
The Time to Stop thread has me thinking as well as my observations over the past several years regarding surface and high performance balls.  Most should know that there have been no real innovations in covers or cores in several years.   What they are now doing is basically upping the underlying surface to increase surface friction.  Ever notice how 4000 grit balls now seem so dull compared to a few years ago.  That's because the manufacturers are sanding balls at 360 or 500 then to 2000. The cover stock from last year now has a more gritty base so of course it will hook more.  Brunswick did this years ago when their factory surface was 220 with Rough Buff or 400 with Factory High Gloss.  That created much earlier reads than other companies 1500 grit polish.  If you took another companies ball and hit it with 400 then polish you lost a tremendous amount of push.  

Thus, do we really need high performance balls, especially since there is really no new technology (last year's new tech is this year's low end)?  With so many mid-range balls with strong covers and excellent cores, why do we need to spend $160 for a Taboo when a surface tweak and layout can get you similar performance for $80 out of a Midnight Vibe?  If you want to see how much performance you can get out of a Freeze, Vibe, Tropical Heat, Anaconda, etc, drill up one and then hit it to the same factory surface as one of the HP balls and see if that performance difference is worth the price.  I think people will be surprised at how much a Vibe can hook with 360/500/1000.


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robuster

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 10:35:42 AM »
In a different post I addressed this very same issue. The Vital SIGN retails for around 130.00 a Tornado for 50.00. My son uses both.I purchased both, had each drilled alike.The balls are really close after my son accidently had the      Tornado sanded& polished.Big difference in the price not the performance. NEXT BIG PURCHASE WILL BE A BALL SPINNER AND POLISH. No more high end equipment for me.
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MrPerfect

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 11:04:51 AM »
I don't necessarily agree with your complete argument as many new releases are differences in cover technology.

In the end it does all come down to achieving a particular grit. In particular, look at the actual differences from a simple abralon pad sanding job, and the results of a cover created through a chemical process.

I think more what you are seeing is that with the prevelance of better materials the difference between the quality of the low price point balls and high price point balls is much smaller than it used to be.

Further, it also depends on what pattern you are bowling on. If you are bowling on a house shot, with the right surface almost any ball will work, but balls are made for the competitive bowler.
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 11:52:38 AM »
If you ever bowl on anything tougher than a house shot (where the tons of friction available on the outside part of the lane mask differences in bowling balls), yes there's a world of difference in coverstock technology.  I compared a Dimension and a Tropical Heat at the same surface (500 straight up to 2000 abralon, done by the same person in the pro shop I frequent), with somewhat similar layouts on a fresh USBC Open pattern and saw an EIGHT board difference in total hook.  That's huge.  This drastically altered my ability to play angles that gave me more mistake room and better carry with the Dimension.  And bear in mind I'm a low rev stroker, so I see even less difference in equipment than someone who revs it up.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 11:53:28 AM »
quote:
In my area, using anything more than a mid-level ball will cause scores to drop.  The move off friction that some of these hi performance balls make is beyond stupid.  The ball is still hooking when it hits the pins and carry sucks.

I guess if you need help getting the ball to turn over, get the hi performance ball but if you have a good release(s) and don''t mind tweaking surfaces, you dont need anything more than a $120 ball.

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Edited on 12/20/2010 1:42 PM


+1.  Especially for a THS.
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Steven

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 12:09:15 PM »
quote:
I guess if you need help getting the ball to turn over, get the hi performance ball but if you have a good release(s) and don't mind tweaking surfaces, you dont need anything more than a $120 ball


I don't need 'help' turning the ball over, I've averaged in the 225-235 range for several years, and I would never limit myself to lower technology $120 equipment. The core/cover combinations on higher end equipment provide for much more versatility and more line options. Why give that up??

Most decent bowlers can get to the THS pocket with almost any equipment. But it's all about carry, and higher end equipment makes a difference.
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Yanker

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 12:15:17 PM »
It used to be the higher cost was attributed mostly to the R & D involved with designing a new core and then, making new molds for the cores. It really isn't right when manufacturers recycle an old core, call it by a different name, then charge the premium price. They will tell you the densities are different, but, if that's the case, the mold shape is still the same.
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BackToBasics

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 12:43:14 PM »
quote:
If you ever bowl on anything tougher than a house shot (where the tons of friction available on the outside part of the lane mask differences in bowling balls), yes there's a world of difference in coverstock technology.  I compared a Dimension and a Tropical Heat at the same surface (500 straight up to 2000 abralon, done by the same person in the pro shop I frequent), with somewhat similar layouts on a fresh USBC Open pattern and saw an EIGHT board difference in total hook.  That's huge.  This drastically altered my ability to play angles that gave me more mistake room and better carry with the Dimension.  And bear in mind I'm a low rev stroker, so I see even less difference in equipment than someone who revs it up.


Just to be clear, I am talking about ALL conditions, not just THS.  "Tournament" shots can and often have a significant amount of friction as well and the ones that don't can also break down extremely fast.

Was this the hybrid since I believe that is the strongest of the Tropicals? But how much difference would a 2Furious, DiamondBack Or Revolver have been and if only a board or two, would it really have made that much difference in scoring?  

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Dan Belcher

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 12:48:59 PM »
quote:
Was this the hybrid since I believe that is the strongest of the Tropicals? But how much difference would a 2Furious, DiamondBack Or Revolver have been and if only a board or two, would it really have made that much difference in scoring?
The orange and purple pearl version.

Even if there's only a one or two board difference in total hook, the actual reaction shape can be vastly different, and therefore change your carry and mistake room. On a 35 foot sport shot in a tournament recently, I made only a two board move when switching between a sanded pin down Mars and a very very lightly polished pin up Gravity Shift. However, the Gravity Shift gave me four boards of area at the breakpoint to still hit pocket and carry most of the time, compared to about 1.5 boards of area with the Mars. And even when I hit the pocket with the Mars, I was still threatening to leave a shaker 7 or flat 10 because the ball simply couldn't create the same entry angle as something with a coverstock that responds more violently to dry boards.

Also, on dry lanes, I've actually hooked urethane just as much as my reactive stuff, but again, gigantic difference in how it responds to the oil, to the friction, and what kind of reaction shape it creates, and therefore how much mistake room it gives me and how well it carries.

There's a reason I carry low end AND high end stuff in my bag, and use both on different conditions.
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DON DRAPER

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 01:22:42 PM »
While I've had honor scores and high averages with mid-level balls I've really had MORE honor scores and HIGHER averages with top of the line equipment.
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BackToBasics

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 01:29:30 PM »
quote:
quote:
Was this the hybrid since I believe that is the strongest of the Tropicals? But how much difference would a 2Furious, DiamondBack Or Revolver have been and if only a board or two, would it really have made that much difference in scoring?
The orange and purple pearl version.

Even if there's only a one or two board difference in total hook, the actual reaction shape can be vastly different, and therefore change your carry and mistake room. On a 35 foot sport shot in a tournament recently, I made only a two board move when switching between a sanded pin down Mars and a very very lightly polished pin up Gravity Shift. However, the Gravity Shift gave me four boards of area at the breakpoint to still hit pocket and carry most of the time, compared to about 1.5 boards of area with the Mars. And even when I hit the pocket with the Mars, I was still threatening to leave a shaker 7 or flat 10 because the ball simply couldn't create the same entry angle as something with a coverstock that responds more violently to dry boards.

Also, on dry lanes, I've actually hooked urethane just as much as my reactive stuff, but again, gigantic difference in how it responds to the oil, to the friction, and what kind of reaction shape it creates, and therefore how much mistake room it gives me and how well it carries.

There's a reason I carry low end AND high end stuff in my bag, and use both on different conditions.


I think you are somewhat blurring the point by comparing balls with VASTLY different characteristics.  A high flaring, low RG assymetrical to a low flaring symmetrical is not a fair comparison. That difference alone is enough to make a difference.  

My point is I bet you could have had similar or the same amount of room with say a 2Furious or Nomad Pearl (using same company for example).  But the mid-range ball has to have similar characteristics.  

I mean at what point do we complicate bowling so much where .001 differences in flare potential and RG values are considered new and high performing?
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 01:43:16 PM »
quote:
My point is I bet you could have had similar or the same amount of room with say a 2Furious or Nomad Pearl (using same company for example).  But the mid-range ball has to have similar characteristics.
I tried a Reign that didn't work at all, and a more highly polished 2nd Dimension that worked very well only after 5 or 6 games where the fronts had been blown up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not overstating how important the differences in balls is, but I DO think you are vastly understating the differences. If the pros that aren't on staff with some manufacturer find it worth their while to throw two similar balls with slightly different layouts because one carries better than the other in certain situations because it's coverstock is ever so slightly more responsive to dry than the other one, isn't that enough to tell you that yes, it makes a difference? It might be a small difference in one or two strikes a game, but one or two strikes a game is the difference between cashing in a tournament and finishing way out of the money. I cashed in that tournament a couple months ago, but missed the cut to match play by 13 pins. The difference? Two blower 7-10 splits when I tried adjusting hand positions, moving my feet, and adjusting speed far too long before just switching balls to something that fit the condition better on that particular pair of lanes I just moved to.
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dizzyfugu

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 12:42:24 AM »
IMHO, high end balls are overrated - at least for the common league bowler. These are ego prothesis' and cash cows, and actually you need a ball that works on the lanes instead of one with a huge price tag.

Maybe it is just personal experience, but I quit on high end stuff and am amazed how good so-called low-end stuff or antiquities work.
General lack of oil is one reason (the most aggersiive ball I used in league this season is my Ultra Radical Pearl, most of the time I get along with my black Pure Hammer!), but also the more predictable reaction of the less aggressive materials for my game. I have the feeling that I could get along with a Power Groove...

I also subscribe to the statement that you rather need some hand position/release adjustment knowledge than ever new balls. But, as mentioned above, as long as the myth of "new ball = high score" persists, the industry won't change.
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kidlost2000

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 01:40:46 AM »
I would have to say the past few seasons I've not seen enough oil to justify needing the high performance equipment. The lower end and mid priced products have been amazing. At the start of the season I demo a Plague and it was easily every bit as strong as my original Jigsaw. I sold the Jigsaw because I couldn't use it.

Even with surface changes the Jigsaw was more work then needed to get the ball to the 1-3 pocket.

Many of the tournaments I have bowled recently have gone to much drier conditions taking many of the super aggressive balls out of play for most bowlers. Many of the lower average bowlers with only one or two HP bowling balls can't make the adjustments to even get close.
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

bhman79

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Re: Are we being duped? High Performance Balls
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 06:09:49 AM »
Every year the new high performance bowling balls hooks more and more than the previous year.  Shouldn't we be having a hard time keeping them on the lane by now?  I find it hard to believe that my local alley is putting out more and thicker oil, that just doesn't make any sense.  So my question to the guys that post the reaction videos on here is this.  When you compare a Virtual Gravity and an Invasion, are we seeing a Virtual Gravity with hundreds and hundreds of games vs a newly drilled Invasion?  My guess is yes, and of course we know which is going to be stronger.
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