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Author Topic: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..  (Read 8568 times)

Juggernaut

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This is a reply post that Pat Duggan made in a thread about bowlingballmall and its purported demise.  Pat also stated that www.Bowlingballmall.com is indeed alive and well.

  I thought this was worth more people seeing, so I cut and pasted it here. I hope Pat doesn't mind.

quote:
Thanks for the reply. You are correct, we are going to do something soon about the site. The site is outdated, but in honesty we do have many of the items instock still. Our site is outdated, but to say we are done, kaput, toast, is an outright lie.

We we one of the first online websites around. We offered fair prices that usually with shipping was the same as a pro shop or maybe 10.00 cheaper at the most, and that would be mostly due to the fact the customer did not have to pay sales tax. We did a robust business and everyone was happy.

We offer more than just changing boxes, we spend time with our customers giving advice and help, (I have spent over 2 hours with a customer before), as I love to teach and help bowlers. Spending over 10 years on the PWBA tour with my wife Anne Marie and some of that time as a ball Rep for Storm, we do have insight that can be benefical to a bowler, and immensly enjoy giving back and helping bowlers.
Along with Fred Borden, in 1996 we were first to use C.A.T.S. as a teaching tool, and set up a C.A.T.S. lane in Salt Lake City at the ABC tournament and in 1997 in Reno we also set up Lane 81 with C.A.T.S for the WIBC and gave over 1400 lessons with the women. We also did the A.B.C. Tournament and the W.I.B.C tournaments in 1998. We have over 50,000 happy customers who constantly stay in touch. We work off of word of mouth and repeat business.

A few years back we were going full steam ahead with a new design and pushing forward when, we decided that we did not want to participate in the destruction of brick and mortar shops. So we went a different route and have been selling mostly older equipment online, and have fun actually helping customers get that old favorite ball they wished they could find one more time.

We also had personal reasons for slowing down the website as we had an elderly family member that we had to take care of on a daily basis for the last 4 years, who just passed this Jan.

We do intend to update the website before the fall season, but make no mistake we have a lot of inventory old and new.

But please hear me bowlers. These cheap prices are a cancer. It is like seeing a beautiful home and it looks great on the outside, but inside it is being destroyed by termites and it slowly falling apart. This is what is happening to the Brick and Mortar Pro Shops. Make no mistake, good people, people with knowledge and who really care about the bowler are being killed by these discount online bowling sites. The pro shop business is not a get rich quick business for most, and it is hard to make less than 40% gross margins and still make a decent living. Just look at the numbers. Most pro shops in this country do less than 100,000 in sales a year, but many are operated by knowledgable, caring, people. These people have family, kids that what to go to college, eat, etc.

One day you will walk into a bowling center and things will look like they did decades ago. The guy at the counter will tell that when the mechanic gets time he will drill your ball and give you a lesson.

In my humble opinion bowling is slowly turning into a total recreational leisure time activity, the sport end is slowly but surly dieing and going away. Not having qualified, knowledgable proshop operators will be the demise of bowling as a "SPORT".

I am also an advid golfer, 4 hdcp. I cannot purchase any top of the line golf ball, golf club, golf shoes, any cheaper online than I can at a brick and mortar shop. The PGA and golf manufacturers have made sure their club pros are protected and that they can make a decent living and are there to help and promote the game of golf, they are the first line ambassadors for their sport, and get the income and respect they deserve from their industry. This is not the case the the bowling industry.

Okay, I wrote a book, but this has been on my chest for over 6 years. Please think about this bowlers, short term gain, for long term loss.

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86camaroman

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Yes I agree mythical I have heard of such great proshops but I have not ever seen one out of all the shops around here in a 20 mile radius there is 4 and none of them have a clue about anything yes they can put holes in a ball ask them your pap and they will laugh and shoot you a number they dont even know how to find your pap and to lay a ball out based on your pap again yeah right every ball you buy they put the pin at 1oclock only way they know how too thats the reason I bought everything to drill my own stuff I have only been doing it for a year and I feel like I know a crap load more then the shops around here I am no professional shop like the mythical ones but bi golly I can lay a ball out using several techniques

Spider Ball Bowler

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quote:
Yes I agree mythical I have heard of such great proshops but I have not ever seen one out of all the shops around here in a 20 mile radius there is 4 and none of them have a clue about anything yes they can put holes in a ball ask them your pap and they will laugh and shoot you a number they dont even know how to find your pap and to lay a ball out based on your pap again yeah right every ball you buy they put the pin at 1oclock only way they know how too thats the reason I bought everything to drill my own stuff I have only been doing it for a year and I feel like I know a crap load more then the shops around here I am no professional shop like the mythical ones but bi golly I can lay a ball out using several techniques


I really think that's most of the problem right there.  All of the bowling people want the bowler to support the local pro shops, but probably 80% of pro shops don't do what they're "supposed to do" for us.  

I have no problem with my driller, because the stuff I get always feels the same, which at times in other shops has been a (huge) stretch. His prices are solid and very comparable to online pricing, plus if you're anywhere near a decent bowler, the ball will pay for itself anyways.  Not all, but most.  For me that's the biggest things I look for at a shop, prices that aren't completely terrible, say $230 or up on anything, a guy that will talk to you and is helpful and nice, and someone that can repeat drillings.

I think that if all "local pro shops" went the extra inch, and did all the small extras you so frequently hear about on this site, but never see, more people would go and buy directly from them, rather trying to save some money online.  The problem I see is like others have mentioned, you walk in, tell them you're looking for a new ball, and most don't even ask what you're looking for, just point you in the direction of the $200 and up pieces.

Support your local shop, even if they don't support you?  I don't think so.  I'll save the extra $40-$50 when all he's going to do is put holes in it.  Show me a shop that actually cares, and even when they're super busy will take time out to hit your ball with a 4000 grit pad, or to open up your thumb hole, then that is a business I can support.

On Edit:  If you want my money, earn my money.  The bowling industry is no different than anything else.  I want customer service, if you don't give it, I'm not giving you my money.  The end!

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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!

Edited on 3/30/2009 3:13 PM

Pinbuster

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When you make it impossible to make a decent living most of the good operators will find employment elsewhere the money is easier and benefits are provided.

Then where does a new bowler go to get fitted properly or a more experienced bowler goes to solve a fit problem?  The person hired last week to man the desk and double as the “proshop” operator doesn’t know those things.

Those who have bowled long enough to establish their fit and/or have enough knowledge to layout a ball don’t need those guys much. But this is probably less than 5% of the bowling population.

Without the quality operator the game will not flourish but they are being driven out of the business.

Krakken

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[/quote]

There are laws against what you are suggesting here.  If manufacturers and distributors did this, we would lose in the long run because everyone would be in prison.[/quote]

Not true at all.  PING currently sets the minimum price you can sell their products at.  Otherwise they won't let you sell their merchandise. None of them are in jail.

Also the originator of the article says you cna't buy top of the line golf clubs any cheaper online?  He isn't looking hard enough.  You can easily save $100 on a driver and $100-$200 on a set of irons that you purchase online.

This is just the ebb and flow of capitalism.  Right now everyone wants it cheap.  It will probably drive some of the owners of the brick and mortar shops out of business.  Then we will get tired of cheap and want quality, and personal service.  When enough people want quality and personal service, the brick and mortar shops will make a strong comeback.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

burly1

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I guess I am blessed, for I have a super proshop and drillers and I will gladly pay a little more for the service, and this little shop is busy as hell with standing room only, and yes it is almost tradition to buy them a brew when you come in! They get the lion's share of all my bowling purchases and they know it! but they do not act like they expect or deserve it! Props to the best pro shop in the metroplex!! OTIS PILLOW PRO SHOP!!!!
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Patrick

Krakken

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http://www.golfdiscount.com/products/callaway-x-forged-irons-2009

Callaway's newest iron release.  $120 cheaper than in stores. Stores are going for $899.  No tax online, and no shipping.

I didn't even try hard on that one.  Put a little into it and I bet I can get them even cheaper.  EBay especially.

Your Quote:
" Go try to buy brand new, no xxout's or blem Titlest Pro V1's any cheaper it can't be done. I am also talking about legit sources, that actually have accounts with these companies. Prices are exactly the same at both sources, Brick & Mortar shops and online shops, no discounts allowed. "

Now you are settign terms for where I can get it from?  I can easily get a lot of the newest releases by a little work on the internet.

I will agree with you that I haven't yet found Titleist PRO V 1s much cheaper online, but I can get them $5 or so cheaper online, plus no sales tax.  So that makes them about $10 cheaper where I am from.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:18 PM

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:19 PM

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:22 PM

Pinbuster

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The ones I see at other sites for $899 include a 3 iron... this is just 4 thru wedge.


Krakken

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quote:
The ones I see at other sites for $899 include a 3 iron... this is just 4 thru wedge.




Good catch.  I failed to read the whole thing in haste....lol

Try this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2009-CALLAWAY-X-FORGED-IRONS-3-PW-PROJECT-X-6-0_W0QQitemZ400040066297QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGolf_Clubs?hash=item400040066297&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

In the end do a lot of folks really care where they get stuff from?  No, they care about what they pay for it.  The above set is the same set you will buy for $899 in stores.  Same quality, same manufacturer.

I buy my bowling equipment from an actual brick and mortar shop (Sports Plus Carmen Don) as I really see no real savings getting it online.  (Maybe $10-$20 per ball) And if something goes wrong with it, I have to deal with the manufacturer myself.  Not worth it in my opinion.

I am just saying that the folks that want it cheaper can and will get it that way.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:31 PM

Pinbuster

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The big difference is that unless you get stuck with knock offs the clubs are the same. Of course you miss out on any custom fitting a brick and morter might give.

And I know that cally, ping etc will pull merchandise from a seller if they sell below a specified level. That doesn't mean that many shops in an effort to make a decent profit might charge more.

But a bowling ball is more about fit than the ball itself.

Bowling needs that guy to fit you.

The best ball in the world with a lousy fit isn't any good. A k-mart ball with a good fit can be scored with.

jls

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quote:
http://www.golfdiscount.com/products/callaway-x-forged-irons-2009

Callaway's newest iron release.  $120 cheaper than in stores. Stores are going for $899.  No tax online, and no shipping.

I didn't even try hard on that one.  Put a little into it and I bet I can get them even cheaper.  EBay especially.

Your Quote:
" Go try to buy brand new, no xxout's or blem Titlest Pro V1's any cheaper it can't be done. I am also talking about legit sources, that actually have accounts with these companies. Prices are exactly the same at both sources, Brick & Mortar shops and online shops, no discounts allowed. "

Now you are settign terms for where I can get it from?  I can easily get a lot of the newest releases by a little work on the internet.

I will agree with you that I haven't yet found Titleist PRO V 1s much cheaper online, but I can get them $5 or so cheaper online, plus no sales tax.  So that makes them about $10 cheaper where I am from.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:18 PM

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:19 PM

Edited on 3/30/2009 4:22 PM




Where they the new Titleist Pro V1 for $45.95, or last years model for $39.95?

And I do believe there is a shipping charge if you just bought 1 dozen balls.
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jls

Kid Jete

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Online retailers are here to stay, just as they are in ALL other niches in the retail industry.  I never understood why bowlers take it so personally.  The only issue I think is shady is the fact that B and M shops don't have access to the deep discounts online retailers do.  I don't have a problem with large quantity discounts but not the HUGE difference that is around in the bowling industry.  Eight or Ten buck a ball difference would still let B and M shops make money and not be completely shut out by online retailers.  Either way to blame online retailers for ruining the B and M shops is just ridiculous, like a few of you have mentioned.  It's not their fault they are offered these deep discounts on product, they are people just like the ones that run the B and M shops.  They have families to support just like everyone else.

Kid Jete

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And to whoever started the golf dicussion... most B and M golf shops already went through the online issues and most just found other ways to make money, especially the green grass account.  Yeah there are still large golf retailers like golf galaxy but they also sell online.  If you are going to compare golf to bowling you really can only use the golf pro shops that are considered green grass accounts.  When you look at those MOST of them stopped carrying equipment a long time ago and just sell apparrel and basic stuff like tees and balls.  I know this because I was one of them.  We just have a lot of other ways to make money that the bowling industry lacks.

jls

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quote:
And to whoever started the golf dicussion... most B and M golf shops already went through the online issues and most just found other ways to make money, especially the green grass account.  Yeah there are still large golf retailers like golf galaxy but they also sell online.  If you are going to compare golf to bowling you really can only use the golf pro shops that are considered green grass accounts.  When you look at those MOST of them stopped carrying equipment a long time ago and just sell apparrel and basic stuff like tees and balls.  I know this because I was one of them.  We just have a lot of other ways to make money that the bowling industry lacks.





In my area,  we have a Golf Galaxy, two Dick's, and a Sports Authority.  And we also have a small pro shop located at a driving range.  

Now his shop is extremely small compared to the others, yet his prices are the same!!!

He stocks all the major brands.  On any given day,  his price will match any of the big boys prices.  

Now what you said about green grass pro shops is true, most no longer sell clubs.   But why?  If this small pro shop can buy Ping or Taylor and sell them for the same price as the big boys, then why can't the pro shops at the golf course do the same.  

Titleist balls sell for $45.95.  Yet some golf course pro shops try to sell them for $58.00  

Now I know what the cost is on some of these golf balls.  And at $45.95,  these shops are making a profit.

It's not like the old days when pro line golf balls cost the shops $9.25-$9.75  a dozen,  yet were selling for $11.00 at retail!!!!

Pro shops today can make a nice profit on pro line balls.
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jls

RyanRPS

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quote:
quote:
Simple solution as I see it - Manufacturers and Distributors selling to online stores can stipulate what minimum price the product has to be sold for, and put it in line with what a bowler would buy it for undrilled from their local proshop.  I guess if the average drilling fee is around $50, and a ball retails in a proshop for $200, then a minimum online price of $150 should be put on the ball so that it makes no financial difference to buy online...

Of course, for this to work all manufacturers and distributors need to be thinking along the same lines, as if company X put their online price at $X and company Y leaves the online retailer to sell at whatever price they want, a customer may just opt for the cheaper brand, regardless of which they would prefer on an even price footing.

I don think online shops serve a very good purpose for getting your hands on hard to find, discontunied, and old equipment.

Ryan




There are laws against what you are suggesting here.  If manufacturers and distributors did this, we would lose in the long run because everyone would be in prison.


As someone else mentioned, how is it illegal?  Are you thinking I mean "price fixing" and agreeing prices with other manufactures?  That is not what I mean.

I Simply mean you tell the online retailer "please do not sell this for under $150 after shipping", and if they refuse, then do not sell it to them.  It is easy to check what they are selling them for so you can check up on them.

If all manufacturers stuck to this then there would be no benifit to buying online unless the ball was not available locally.

Ryan

Krakken

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Where they the new Titleist Pro V1 for $45.95, or last years model for $39.95?

And I do believe there is a shipping charge if you just bought 1 dozen balls.
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jls[/quote]

Last year's PRO V ones were on sale at Dick's for $39.99 around christmas.  They sold out in a few days here.  And according to someone I know that works at Callaway, Titleist had to pull the rest out due to a lawsuit that they won vs Titleist for copyright infringement for the PRO V1.

With a little searching I am sure you can get the Pro V1 for less than in stores.  I don't know what they are going for in stores. Have you tried Ebay?

And at least 2 of the sites I shop on won't charge shipping for even 1 dozen balls.

You definitely can do well by doing a little shopping online.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes