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Author Topic: Reverse Finger Pitch  (Read 27451 times)

Brickguy221

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Reverse Finger Pitch
« on: June 11, 2009, 12:49:26 PM »
I know that many people use reverse finger pitch because of stiffness in their fingers, hand, etc. With that being said, why do some bowlers use reverse finger pitch when they have no stiffness in their fingers, hand etc.

I know of two local bowlers that average in the 225-235 range that use reverse finger pitch and they have no finger or hand stiffness. One uses 3/8 reverse in both fingers and the other uses 3/8 reverse on MF and 1/2 reverse on the RF.

They both say they get better lift-leverage on the ball with reverse finger pitch.

My question is .... Is this is true for those of you that might use reverse finger pitch but don't have any finger or hand stiffness?
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Edited on 6/11/2009 8:51 PM
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

 

Brickguy221

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 08:15:05 PM »
quote:
Brick I was wondering. 1/2 in the ring is quite a bit. If you have too much you will get nothing on the ball. The thumb pitch is a big deal because it has to come out on time. If you come out early you will drop the ball and have nothing on it


Smash after my terrible experience with the Storm ball Monday and my way-way better experience with the Playmaker with different pitches today today, I have to agree with you here. After today, even though the 1/2 ring Monday may have been a factor, I think the thumb pitch was the major culprit. I do know that I was getting  very little on the ball Monday and today with the different pitches, I seemed to be getting enough on the ball.

Anxious to pick up my Gamebreaker Thursday and see what it does. The pitches and span is supposed to match the Playmaker I threw today and hopefull the driller gets it right as he is for what ever reason not too accurate on the span anymore. Gets pitches perfect but not the span. I made him let me check the span today before he drilled it. I had him adjust it a wee bit and drill it and it came out perfect.

If the Gamebreaker comes off my hand as well as the Playmaker did today, then I am on the right track. I'm anxious to get this issue resolved as I have 3 NIB balls sitting in the closet to drill plus plug and redrill one in my bag.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

JustRico

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 08:54:47 PM »
Keep something in mind...pitch is more of an angle than pitch. Pitch is what is drilled into a flat object.
If you drill a hole at 0 'pitch' into a round object, the farther you move the hole from the starting point, the more angle is created, eventhough it may still be drilled towards the center of the object. So if you drill a hole at 0 pitch and have a 4" span, how much angle is created compared to a 5" span from hole to hole?
Too much is based upon the pitch and not the angle. If you have a 5" span and have 1/2" away or reverse in the fingers, the pads will more than likely lay flatter in the holes, irregardless of flexibility.

As Lane so eloquintly borrowed from me, Span Dictates Pitch, not the opposite. Make sure you have the correct starting span and then adjusting pitch to acquire the proper feel. What is right for one will not or more than likely not be the same for another. Merely having an excessive amount of away or reverse pitch in the fingers does not automatically mean you need less reverse pitch in the thumb. It all depends on what the hand dictates.

When dealing with lateral pitches between the finger and thumbs, conflicting pitches can hamper release ease. If you have an excessive amount of right lateral in the fingers and left lateral in the thumb, it can create a cork screw effect at the release or the angles are fighting themselves or against each other.

And finger laterals have lesser affect on overall release than most think. It is more comfort than performance.

Pitch with the proper span allows the bowling ball to stay on the bowlers hand and allows it to release and/or clear at the correct or proper point in the release.
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Smash49

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 09:28:55 PM »
There are several factors in measuring a hand.  The thumb pitch and span are linked together but there are more factors than just that.  Flexibility of the thumb is one factor.  Being double jointed in the thumb is another. Moisture of the thumb.  Length of the thumb etc etc... It is true that there is a difference in angle between a 4 and 5 inch span.  All of the factors that are involved are why I hate seeing balls come into my shop from other places that are drilled exactly the same except for span.  Almost everyones hand has some kind of differences.  This is why people pay the money for quality drilling.  Anyone can drill 3 holes in a ball.  Doing it correctly is another story.

Smash49
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Mike Austin

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2009, 10:51:27 PM »
1/2 reverse in Brick's fingers is not too excessive.  His fingers are very stiff.  They are crooked too if I remember correctly.

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Smash49

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 12:51:48 PM »
Mike

I have seen people with 3/4 and 7/8 reverse in the fingers.  Absolutely no flexibility in the fingers at all.  We had one lady a few years back with a finger at a 45 degree angle.  Everyone's hand is different and you have to drill what you see.  Without seeing the bowlers hand I really cannot make anything other than general recommendation statements. There are never any cut and dry, cast in stone anything without actually being there.  

Smash49
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Mike Austin

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 09:12:47 PM »
I have examined Brick's hand, but it was around a year ago.

I drilled one guy's middle finger at 1 1/4 reverse.  He was an ex baseball catcher in the minors, ex boxer for money, ex brick mason, and who knows what else, this guy's hand was terrible.  Yikes...
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2009, 07:58:59 AM »
Some comments and questions.....

Comments

The old Bill Taylor
or standard was 64 degrees....this was based on the 4 1/8 span = 0 forward/ reverse thumb table....For the average flexibility thumb.  Adjustments to maintain the 64 degree angle(between the body of the hand(palm) and the thumb angle) were made by 1/16 reverse for every 1/8 lengthening in span.  Also adjustments made for a shortened span were also done by 1/16 increments forward for every 1/8 shortening.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Bill Tays game or and he does recommend bowlers adjust more forward from these tables if they can(ie flexibility).  If they have less than average flexibility they adjust and open up the 64 degree angle.

Questions:

1.  For smash...what is the effect you believe of the 3/8 3/8 lateral split in lateral pitches and what should they be?  WHY?
 
2.  For Smash/Rico....  all this // \ ??????  Is that referring to the lateral pitches of the fingers versus the lateral pttch of the thumb?  Are you saying they should be in similar directions??  Thumb finger????

3.  For smash....and others....are you saying that if one adds more lateral one should move the thumb more forward thus preserving the same original angles that one started with when they might have been 0 forward reverse on the fingers and 1/4 reverse on thumb.....Sort of this....if now 1/4 reverse on fingers then 0 forward reverse on the thumb?

Thank you...

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Smash49

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2009, 02:33:53 PM »
1. For smash...what is the effect you believe of the 3/8 3/8 lateral split in lateral pitches and what should they be? WHY?

The Lateral pitches in the fingers do a couple things.  Comfort is one thing that laterals do.  Many people have fingers that are bent or angled.  Proper lateral pitch eliminates pressure and rubbing.  3/8 , 3/8 you may see quite often and is used as a generic setting.  This many times is not the correct measurement.  A second thing lateral pitches do is keep the finger holes from meeting at the bottom of the bridge.  If the fingers are straight I will start with a 1/4 left middle finger and 5/8 right ring finger. This is depending on the size of the hand and the conditions of the fingers ie...  jammed, bent, damaged, smaller, larger I can adjust as needed.

For Smash/Rico.... all this // \ ?????? Is that referring to the lateral pitches of the fingers versus the lateral pttch of the thumb? Are you saying they should be in similar directions?? Thumb finger????

Fingers and thumb pitches are independent of each other but generally if they are away from each other you will drop the ball.  If they are pointed inward toward each other you will most likely squeeze the ball.  The // \ you are seeing is for reverse in the fingers and thumb only it has nothing to do with laterals.  Unfortunately it is hard to draw on this forum.

For smash....and others....are you saying that if one adds more lateral one should move the thumb more forward thus preserving the same original angles that one started with when they might have been 0 forward reverse on the fingers and 1/4 reverse on thumb.....Sort of this....if now 1/4 reverse on fingers then 0 forward reverse on the thumb?

I use laterals in the fingers for comfort and to keep the pressure off the joints and put the feel back onto the pads of the finger.  As for lateral in the thumb this is set to help come out of the ball cleanly.  The thumb lateral depends on the side to side flexibility of the thumb.  It depends on how much inward the thumb maybe moved toward the palm.  Rarely do I ever drill right lateral in the thumb.  

Even though the fingers and thumb are independent, if you move one forward or reverse you should also adjust the other as needed.

Smash49





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Brickguy221

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2009, 08:57:32 PM »
Here is an update on my progress of trying reverse finger pitch.

First let me say, contrary to my beliefs prior to now, reverse finger pitch does indeed create more lift/leverage and revs as well as more pin action, at least it does for me. I was always under the impression ever since I began bowling in the late 1960's that a person had to have 0 F-R finger pitch with power lift grips or even forward finger pitch for maximum lift-leverage-etc....and maybe for some people it does, but I have found it doesn't for me. I have found thru my testing the past 10 days or so that reverse finger pitch does those things for me as it puts the ball on the pad of my fingers, thus giving me better feel and control of the ball, even allowing last split second adjustments at the line when something went wrong in my approach and still getting the ball to the pocket with success.

For anyone interested, here is what has taken place...

I formerly had a total span of 4 7/17 x 4 1/2
Now it is .....................4 5/16 x 4 5/16

Thumb was 1/4 reverse and 0 lateral
Thumb now 1/8 reverse and 1/16 out lateral

Finger pitches were 0 F-R on MF and sometimes 0 on RF and sometimes 1/8 R on RF with power lift grips
Finger pitches are now 1/4 reverse on MF and 3/8 reverse on RF with oval grips

Before arriving at my final pitches above, I tried 3/8 R MF and 1/2 R RF with 1/4 R thumb. Couldn't get anything on the ball and then thought maybe the ball was coming off thumb too fast. Maybe had I just shortened the span a bit and reduced reverse thumb pitch a bit, the more reverse might have worked, I don't know. I just know that with the new grip listed above this paragraph, that I am coming out of the ball better than I have the last 3-4 years. Not saying this is my final grip as I may have to make a tiny adjustment or so, but it appears to be very close to what will work for me....Now if I can just get my mechanics straightened out.....
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

JustRico

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2009, 09:17:08 PM »
If lateral pitches in the finger and thumb are conflicting, you will not drop the ball, you will more than likely cork screw it into the lane or create unneccessary callousing. It will also hinder the release or make inconsistan.
When the fingers are going in one direction and the thumb lateral is going in the opposite, they are fighting each other.
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Smash49

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2009, 10:38:56 PM »
Good to hear Brick!

In the sport of bowling research is going on constantly.  A lot of the old ways of doing things are being put to the test.  Some are right and some are not.  It's funny when you hear some of them being talked about on the old PBA broadcast.  

Smash49
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Brickguy221

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2009, 11:48:55 PM »
quote:
If lateral pitches in the finger and thumb are conflicting, you will not drop the ball, you will more than likely cork screw it into the lane or create unneccessary callousing. It will also hinder the release or make inconsistan.
When the fingers are going in one direction and the thumb lateral is going in the opposite, they are fighting each other.
 


????????????????????????????

Ric, not sure if you were refering to my post or just making a statement, but if refering to my post, where I said 3/8 R MF...1/2 R RF....that meant 3/8 reverse Middle Finger....1/2 reverse Ring Finger.....etc and not right lateral. I maybe should have been more specifiic, but since the topic is about reverse finger pitch, I figured everyone knew what I ment.

If you were refering to something else or just making a statement, then  ignore what I just said here.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

Brickguy221

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2009, 12:54:02 AM »
D Pat, what is your thumb pitch?
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

JustRico

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2009, 07:51:10 AM »
Brick guy, no I was commenting on another statement.

You sir are fine!


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Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"
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...where knowledge creates striking results...
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Reverse Finger Pitch
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2009, 07:52:46 AM »
Istart awhile back....I'll make this comment....early in my bowling start my coach was going thru a difficult time.

He had his fingers near 0 forward reverse and had gone to a bit of forward in his thumb on a like 4 5/8 span....(64 degree angle equals 3/16 reverse).
Say he was 3/16 forward.

When I met him he amazed me in his accuracy and number of 279 games and 700 series night after night in league.  I don't know much but I knew he was bellyaching about being beaten in pot games by no thumbers who were all over the alley etc and their "300 games on cake"!  I mentioned well....I think your thumb finger release separation looks to be much less than theirs and less than other bowlers who are creating area....you are creating virtually none!

Since then he is back to a very typical rate of 300 games and 800 series for him which is quite high!  His thumb reverse I believe is 1/16 or 1/8 his "area" is up dramatically.  He continues to dominate in our area in tough tournament conditions and is pretty well known nationally.

He still talks about that "small" change and what it means to his enjoyment of the game!

I love watching his 300 games now instead of his screw job "279s".

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS note the timing between thumb finger is very important...Thumb dramatically first creates area!
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana